Comments on: So long, 4TV http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/ Nigel Whitfield’s digital TV & technology blog Fri, 18 May 2012 16:23:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Noel Dobson http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-913 Noel Dobson Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:50:45 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-913 I have e-mailed Sony and told them whilst I appreciate their offer it wont give me what I enjoy now. I shall stick with my two SVR S500 which gives me the ability to record up to four programmes at the same time, I also mentioned that when I bought my last box in 2008 it must have been known that the contract for the EPG servicing the box would be over in 2010. The loss of the EPG is nothing more than an irritant now and has been replaced with a marker pen which I use in the Radio Times to indicate the programmes set to be recorded. I will look forward to trying a new double tuner box with hard drive if one becomes avaiable. Meanwhile it is not costing me anything to stick with what I have now. I have e-mailed Sony and told them whilst I appreciate their offer it wont give me what I enjoy now.
I shall stick with my two SVR S500 which gives me the ability to record up to four programmes at the same time,
I also mentioned that when I bought my last box in 2008 it must have been known that the contract for the EPG servicing the box would be over in 2010.
The loss of the EPG is nothing more than an irritant now and has been replaced with a marker pen which I use in the Radio Times to indicate the programmes set to be recorded. I will look forward to trying a new double tuner box with hard drive if one becomes avaiable.
Meanwhile it is not costing me anything to stick with what I have now.

]]> By: Nigel http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-902 Nigel Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:54:36 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-902 And would you care to let us know what that is? Frankly, some sort of offer to those who make the most fuss has always been the most likely outcome. Restarting the EPG service, or updating the software to use the standard EPG are both non-starters. And probably more expensive than giving everyone a new box anyway. And would you care to let us know what that is?
Frankly, some sort of offer to those who make the most fuss has always been the most likely outcome. Restarting the EPG service, or updating the software to use the standard EPG are both non-starters. And probably more expensive than giving everyone a new box anyway.

]]> By: Noel Dobson http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-900 Noel Dobson Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:42:55 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-900 Sony have made me an offer which I shall give consideration and if it gives me what I want I shall go for it. Sony have made me an offer which I shall give consideration and if it gives me what I want I shall go for it.

]]> By: Noel Dobson http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-891 Noel Dobson Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:07:31 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-891 Both my digiboxes have plastic labels which advertise the features of the box. One of these features reads " Electronic Programme Guide for easy recording" There is no ambiguity in that statement and the labels cannot be removed without their destruction. In modern parlance 'does what it says on the box' The box in this instance is the metal case of the equipment. That is why I think Sony will honour what it says on this label. So there certainly is more. Both my digiboxes have plastic labels which advertise the features of the box. One of these features reads

” Electronic Programme Guide for easy recording”

There is no ambiguity in that statement and the labels cannot be removed without their destruction. In modern parlance ‘does what it says on the box’ The box in this instance is the metal case of the equipment. That is why I think Sony will honour what it says on this label. So there certainly is more.

]]> By: Nigel http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-884 Nigel Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:13:53 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-884 There really isn't more, you know. The EPG contract was a contract between other people - nothing to do with the end users. Just like the contracts that allow DVD players to have access to DivX VOD, or some Blu-ray players to have the Gracenote database - though at least in those cases, the companies that make the products are the ones that have their name on the label, and that signed the contract for a third party service. Even so, you don't see anything in the manuals for kit like that saying "This box relies upon a contract with X for Y; the contract ends on the 25th May 2012." That's because no one ever puts things like that in instruction manuals, and there's no obligation for them to do so. And, with most of these boxes, the people who's brand name appeared on the front might not even have been parties to the contract for the EPG. The retailers certainly weren't. And that's why there was no discussion. Not because there was a conspiracy, but because that's just the way commercial life works. The best you'll typically find in any manual - and certainly not a contract of sale - is a note relating to the copyright or patents involved. Who could have known about the expected life of the EPG in 2008? The only people who could are the parties to the contract. The company operating it would be on pretty dodgy ground if they were to actively find a way to warn potential purchasers "the kit you're buying relies on this service, which we might not provide beyond 2010," even if they knew that. And the people selling the boxes aren't likely to shout out a fact like that, are they? And, at the time these contracts were signed, the firms involved doubtless thought they'd still be around, to the extent that they could predict the future at all. As I said in <a href="http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/16/4tv-–-freeview-to-the-rescue-or-perhaps-the-oft/" rel="nofollow">my second post</a> on this topic, a labelling system to indicate reliance on third party services would be about the best you could hope for, in future. Getting companies to disclose what they would doubtless class as commercially confidential contract details, and make those available via the retailer, is pretty unlikely ever to happen. There really isn’t more, you know.
The EPG contract was a contract between other people – nothing to do with the end users. Just like the contracts that allow DVD players to have access to DivX VOD, or some Blu-ray players to have the Gracenote database – though at least in those cases, the companies that make the products are the ones that have their name on the label, and that signed the contract for a third party service. Even so, you don’t see anything in the manuals for kit like that saying “This box relies upon a contract with X for Y; the contract ends on the 25th May 2012.” That’s because no one ever puts things like that in instruction manuals, and there’s no obligation for them to do so.
And, with most of these boxes, the people who’s brand name appeared on the front might not even have been parties to the contract for the EPG. The retailers certainly weren’t. And that’s why there was no discussion. Not because there was a conspiracy, but because that’s just the way commercial life works. The best you’ll typically find in any manual – and certainly not a contract of sale – is a note relating to the copyright or patents involved.
Who could have known about the expected life of the EPG in 2008? The only people who could are the parties to the contract. The company operating it would be on pretty dodgy ground if they were to actively find a way to warn potential purchasers “the kit you’re buying relies on this service, which we might not provide beyond 2010,” even if they knew that. And the people selling the boxes aren’t likely to shout out a fact like that, are they? And, at the time these contracts were signed, the firms involved doubtless thought they’d still be around, to the extent that they could predict the future at all.
As I said in my second post on this topic, a labelling system to indicate reliance on third party services would be about the best you could hope for, in future. Getting companies to disclose what they would doubtless class as commercially confidential contract details, and make those available via the retailer, is pretty unlikely ever to happen.

]]> By: Noel Dobson http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-882 Noel Dobson Mon, 26 Jul 2010 11:28:12 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-882 What I believe is unfortunate is that all those affected seem to have been just dropped in it. I cannot accept that is all that happened. Surely normal equitable behaviour would have been to try and reach a solution and let people know you were doing something. If the residual life of the EPG was known in 08 I never heard it being discussed. There is more to this than we have been told. Over the weekend I had a phone call suggesting that some boxes had guarantees which included the EPG but there were no other details. Even when I bought my last box in 08 this wasn't an issue nor am I sure what my reaction would have been had I known. Over the weekend also I have practiced putting the programmes to be recorded in manually and provided nothing else goes wrong it seems as easy as using the EPG. An e-mail from Sony indicates that they are looking at the problem. So rather than the 'doom and gloom, throw it all in the bin' we now have something positve to investigate. What I believe is unfortunate is that all those affected seem to have been just dropped in it. I cannot accept that is all that happened. Surely normal equitable behaviour would have been to try and reach a solution and let people know you were doing something. If the residual life of the EPG was known in 08 I never heard it being discussed. There is more to this than we have been told.
Over the weekend I had a phone call suggesting that some boxes had guarantees which included the EPG but there were no other details. Even when I bought my last box in 08 this wasn’t an issue nor am I sure what my reaction would have been had I known.

Over the weekend also I have practiced putting the programmes to be recorded in manually and provided nothing else goes wrong it seems as easy as using the EPG.
An e-mail from Sony indicates that they are looking at the problem. So rather than the ‘doom and gloom, throw it all in the bin’ we now have something positve to investigate.

]]> By: Dr Bobby Love http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-880 Dr Bobby Love Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:39:55 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-880 I understand all of the events that have gone on, and can't actually argue with them, it's all just very unfortunate. I just feel really sorry for myself, and anyone in my position. I got my Inverto 7000m 3 years ago with my birthday cash.. £165, 160gb. I don't have the cash for subscription services and when I bought the Inverto there was no advance warning this would happen. I'm saving for a mortgage now so don't have the spare cash for a new box.. just can't justify the cost of a cheap one at £60 and to be honest, they all appear to cause more trouble with operational glitches then they solve. I don't expect the 14day EPG to re appear, but if the 7 day one is free I'd like to hope that inverto, who are at least still operating and selling STB's, could do a software update even if it was a download and do ya self job as ALL there DTB boxes used the 14 day system.. even if it just puts 7 days where there was14 with out all the other 7 days related stuff. A Sad Rob. I understand all of the events that have gone on, and can’t actually argue with them, it’s all just very unfortunate.

I just feel really sorry for myself, and anyone in my position.

I got my Inverto 7000m 3 years ago with my birthday cash.. £165, 160gb. I don’t have the cash for subscription services and when I bought the Inverto there was no advance warning this would happen.

I’m saving for a mortgage now so don’t have the spare cash for a new box.. just can’t justify the cost of a cheap one at £60 and to be honest, they all appear to cause more trouble with operational glitches then they solve.

I don’t expect the 14day EPG to re appear, but if the 7 day one is free I’d like to hope that inverto, who are at least still operating and selling STB’s, could do a software update even if it was a download and do ya self job as ALL there DTB boxes used the 14 day system.. even if it just puts 7 days where there was14 with out all the other 7 days related stuff.

A Sad Rob.

]]> By: Noel Dobson http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-875 Noel Dobson Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:03:36 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-875 Conspiracy theories seem less harmful than unnecessarilly having to splash cash around at a time of grave economic hardship. One of my boxes was purchased in 2008 and the other receipt is missing so the 2008 one could have been the first or the second. These two year old boxes may not have been purchased had I been told that the EPG was only good for 2 years. This info would have been available somewhere. What I am certain about is that one day it was working and the next day it wasn't. I was informed that the contract to provide the EPG had run out and so it had been switched off. Had finance been provided it is reasonable to assume that it could just as easily have been switched back on or more likely never switched off had it been refinanced earlier. There can't have been the will to do so. I have still not seen a satisfactory reason why we were not forewarned that the boxes were about to be swiched off and if not why not. I am quite certain that this issue will not be swept under the carpet. Satellite basic price is about £7.50 per week so that may have been why the last government seemed keen to push Freeview which is good value especially with the recorder when it works as it was designed. I wonder if anyone has asked their local MP about this issue. It needs to be aired if only to stop similar practice being repeated. Conspiracy theories seem less harmful than unnecessarilly having to splash cash around at a time of grave economic hardship.

One of my boxes was purchased in 2008 and the other receipt is missing so the 2008 one could have been the first or the second. These two year old boxes may not have been purchased had I been told that the EPG was only good for 2 years. This info would have been available somewhere.

What I am certain about is that one day it was working and the next day it wasn’t. I was informed that the contract to provide the EPG had run out and so it had been switched off. Had finance been provided it is reasonable to assume that it could just as easily have been switched back on or more likely never switched off had it been refinanced earlier. There can’t have been the will to do so.

I have still not seen a satisfactory reason why we were not forewarned that the boxes were about to be swiched off and if not why not. I am quite certain that this issue will not be swept under the carpet. Satellite basic price is about £7.50 per week so that may have been why the last government seemed keen to push Freeview which is good value especially with the recorder when it works as it was designed. I wonder if anyone has asked their local MP about this issue. It needs to be aired if only to stop similar practice being repeated.

]]> By: Nigel http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-874 Nigel Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:05:25 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-874 That sounds like the makings of a conspiracy theory! It's simple: once upon a time there were some PVRs built around the 4TV programme guide. A contract was set up to pay for those. Various people made the boxes; none of them companies that are even involved in the PVR business in the UK any more. Some of them don't even exist. Even Sony, who have their badge on a box, didn't make it - they just bought it in from someone else. The legal entity that paid for the EPG doesn't exist any more. So they couldn't renew the contract. Frankly, given the age of the product, and the fact that they didn't even design it themselves, I doubt that anyone in Sony - about the only one of these firms still selling consumer electronics in the UK - even realised there was an issue with the EPG on these boxes. About the only people who might, perhaps, have had some interest would be Beko, who made the Sony and some of the other boxes. But again, a long time ago, and for a market they're not interested in any more. I doubt people there were aware of the issue, and even if they had been would they want, in the current financial climate, to pay money to support products that they made for other people, years ago? There is no conspiracy; the few remaining companies involved in these boxes gain nothing by the EPG closing, because they don't make replacements they can sell people - there's no Sony PVR, no UK Inverto models - and the loss of goodwill wouldn't help. The idea of their competitors somehow nobbling them to make products obsolete is pretty far-fetched. That sounds like the makings of a conspiracy theory!
It’s simple: once upon a time there were some PVRs built around the 4TV programme guide. A contract was set up to pay for those. Various people made the boxes; none of them companies that are even involved in the PVR business in the UK any more. Some of them don’t even exist. Even Sony, who have their badge on a box, didn’t make it – they just bought it in from someone else. The legal entity that paid for the EPG doesn’t exist any more. So they couldn’t renew the contract.
Frankly, given the age of the product, and the fact that they didn’t even design it themselves, I doubt that anyone in Sony – about the only one of these firms still selling consumer electronics in the UK – even realised there was an issue with the EPG on these boxes.
About the only people who might, perhaps, have had some interest would be Beko, who made the Sony and some of the other boxes. But again, a long time ago, and for a market they’re not interested in any more. I doubt people there were aware of the issue, and even if they had been would they want, in the current financial climate, to pay money to support products that they made for other people, years ago?
There is no conspiracy; the few remaining companies involved in these boxes gain nothing by the EPG closing, because they don’t make replacements they can sell people – there’s no Sony PVR, no UK Inverto models – and the loss of goodwill wouldn’t help. The idea of their competitors somehow nobbling them to make products obsolete is pretty far-fetched.

]]> By: Noel Dobson http://gonedigital.net/2010/07/14/so-long-4tv/comment-page-1/#comment-873 Noel Dobson Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:28:48 +0000 http://gonedigital.net/?p=459#comment-873 The financial aspect was not about would anyone do it for nothing because obviously they would not. The direction I was taking was, why wasn't the piper paid to continue his tune. Was it that someone wanted the EPG shut down for reasons not so far made known. The financial aspect was not about would anyone do it for nothing because obviously they would not. The direction I was taking was, why wasn’t the piper paid to continue his tune. Was it that someone wanted the EPG shut down for reasons not so far made known.

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